Interview : Henry Rollins

Originally published on Bedlam Society, December 2002
Republished in Mondo Bizarre Magazine, Spring 2003

West Memphis Arkansas is a fucked up town. Because the story of the West Memphis Three is well documented elsewhere (like at http://www.wm3.org/) I'm just going to give you a basic rundown of the case:

On May 5th 1993, three young boys were brutally murdered in the Arkansas area known as "Robin Hood Hills". In a frantic search to find a scapegoat, local police concocted a story claiming that the murders were the result of "cult activity" in the area. Based entirely on the speculation of a local juvenile probation officer, police arrested three teenagers; Damien Echols, Jessie Misskelley and Jason Baldwin. Basically, the teens were convicted of the three murders despite a complete lack of evidence.

Since the boys' conviction in 1994, the case has been the subject of two HBO documentaries, both of which exposed incompetence and bias on the part of the local police. The fight to free the WM3 has become something of a crusade for many artists and celebrities including alternative icon Henry Rollins. Recently, Rollins conceived, organized and recorded a benefit record featuring popular artists singing songs by the legendary punk band Black Flag. Rollins took the time to chat with bedlam about the album, the case against the WM3 and the resurrection of Black Flag after 16 years.

Bedlam: Is the reason that you were so interested in doing this album because you see some of yourself in these three kids?

Henry: To a certain degree. Mainly though, what bugged me about the case was that due process was not served. You don't get thrown in jail for capitol murder, or even a parking ticket without proof. Well…where's the proof? They don't have any. That's just it. There's nothing that ties these boys to the crime. Let's say they did do it; you still can't put them in jail with no evidence. I don't want them to get out on a technicality; I believe they're innocent. I'm not just saying, "ha ha, you need more proof". Motherfucker, you need proof! Not more proof, some. None is not good enough, and that's what they have is none.
That's what initially got me, but that's just the surface of it. Then you get into it. You go to the websites, you start reading and you find that there's a lot more information to be had, so I went and pursued it. Then you find out that there's this whole other life going on around this trial. You find out that the judge and the members of law enforcement in this town have a really bad corruption problem. There's a lot more going on than just these three heavy metal kids in jail. So, I got really concerned. Also, just mad. I thought "not on my watch". I took it personally. If you get away with this and I don't do anything then I'm okaying that somehow. I can't do that. I'm not trying to be righteous or anything I just saw that and wondered, who am I if I just say "oh that sucks" and get into my BMW and go tooling down the road.

Bedlam: I remember watching the first documentary and thinking that it wasn't real.

Henry: Yeah. I thought these actors would all take a bow at the end and go "boo! That's what can happen when the American justice system breaks down", but it's real. Some of the court stuff seemed so TV movie of the week. Things like "I don't know how you do it over in Berkley California".

Bedlam: Yeah, exactly. I don't even necessarily mean that the story seems unreal, but some of the characters are just unbelievable. The stepfather for example.

Henry: Yeah…it's like he's a character actor. It's incredible. It's like the Beatles. It's like this perfect bunch of circumstances has this incredible yield. You have what I feel is a very corrupt way of doing things in that town. That stepfather is just a trip. They broke the mold. The most generic thing in the whole story is the three kids in prison. They're just three, hapless Arkansas residents. They have dumb hairdos and they like heavy metal. Okay, but that doesn't get you arrested.

Bedlam: I never thought of it that way, but I guess the kids do seem like the most normal people involved in this whole thing.

Henry: You see interviews with them, and you know they're innocent. Guilty people are always covering and ducking. These guys are just looking at the camera and saying "what the fuck?" It's pretty easy to tell the difference between a guilty person and an innocent person. When you see how these kids are all arrogant in court you think, well yeah. That's kind of how you are when you're sixteen and you're innocent. You go in there with an attitude. If you didn't do it, of course you don't have any fear. You just trust that the justice system will have you out of there by the afternoon. It's only when you actually did something that you're like "oh shit".

Bedlam: But at the same time, this is just one case that is getting a lot of publicity….

Henry: Sure. There are innocent people in jail in every county in America, I know that, but you can't free them all. This is just one case that moved me. Mainly it was the HBO documentaries that got me interested. I saw them, they grabbed me, I got involved. I'm not saying it's the only case of this. Maybe some good can come of this if we can pull back and start looking at the rest of these questionable cases. Innocent people do go to jail, and maybe we should start checking that out more often.

Bedlam: That's kind of what I was getting at when I asked if this had something to do with your own personal experience. Historically, you make no bones about not liking the police.

Henry: Well…I don't like bad cops. I've got no problem with a cop doing his job, but I think beating an old woman to death with a tree branch is against the law. You don't pay me to enforce the law, you pay the cop guy, so he should take care of that problem. The painter paints your house, the roof dude fixes the roof, the cop gets the bad guys. The problem is that when the cops are the bad guys, what are you going to do? That's my problem. Who do you call when a cop is fucking with you…the cops? It's like the ultimate cat and mouse game. That to me is not a fair fight. That's the problem I have with cops, but it's only the bad ones. I know a lot of cops and they're like "don't hate me man". I don't! If you're not a racist, asshole cop I'm on your side. If you're falsely accusing people and planting evidence on them…fuck you. Get out of my country.

Bedlam: Do you think this album is going to bring a lot more attention to the case?

Henry: It'll bring some. I mean, I have never overestimated music's limited potential on getting something done.

Bedlam: Sure, but you found out about it by watching the documentary right? Everybody has to finds out about it somehow.

Henry: Well, the packaging has a lot of information in it. Maybe someone will go to the website, write a letter to the governor, or get involved somehow. That's what I'm hoping for. An awareness factor.

Bedlam: It's pretty safe to say that this record, even outside the context of being a benefit record, is something that a lot of people would want to have.

Henry: Yes. It is a damn good record. We did it. We made a really good record. I listen to it as just a fan of rock (or whatever) and I realize that besides the benefit part of it, we made a really smokin' record. I'm hoping that people hear it and want to have it because they like the music. What I tried to do was to make, for the artists involved and the buyers, the most tantalizing possible thing. I tried to get singers who have pretty heavy tours to pause and sing on our record for free. What would be my aphrodisiac to lead them to the studio? Black Flag music. As a buyer, Black Flag music (as cool as it is) was never that well recorded. The records leave one wanting production-wise. I thought it would be great to make, basically, a Black Flag greatest hits album with contemporary singers and production that brings the music to the nth degree.

Bedlam: I don't know though…I think a lot of people like the production of the old stuff. The rawness is an important element, don't you think?

Henry: No, I don't.

Bedlam: Really?

Henry: Man, I think it sucks. I was there when we'd run out of money and have to mix the whole thing in one night.

Bedlam: Listening to the new album, what struck me is that everything is really true to the original songs. A lot of these kinds of albums really mess with the songs.

Henry: We didn't fuck with it. The music's good enough. We just tried to hang on and get through it. I think my guys delivered big time.

Bedlam: So all the music was recorded beforehand and the singers were just brought in as they were available?

Henry: Yeah. For the basic tracks we did 11 songs the first day and 13 songs the second day. Then in two days we did all of the guitar overdubs. In four days of studio work, all the music was done. We don't fuck around. The singers would either come into the studio (if they could get to LA) or parts were sent to them wherever they were. Neil from Clutch did his at home, Iggy did his thing in Miami, Ice-T did his thing in New York, Chuck D did his thing in New York, Hank III did his in Nashville…wherever they were.

Bedlam: Who was the biggest deal for you to get on the record?

Henry: Me personally…as a fan? Chuck D. Even though he only does one line, I'm just SO into Chuck D.

Bedlam: Me too. I have to say though; I was a little disappointed that he's only at the very beginning of the song.

Henry: Well…that's all I wanted. I wanted that righteous booming baritone to call out West Memphis. Like "motherfucker, your number is up because Chuck D is here!" That's the vibe. The song was all done, and one night I thought "oh god, Chuck D!" I just heard it. I knew he had to be on this record, so I wrote him this two page pleading email. I just told him what we were doing and said "you gotta be on this thing". Normally I do not lean on that guy for favors, but he came through. The next day he emailed me back and said "of course, can I do it by Friday?" Friday he sent me a CD-R of him doing that line 24 different ways. He gave us different inflections and pauses just so that we as producers could have an option. He's a pro.

Bedlam: Well, it's definitely a great way to kick off the album.

Henry: Yeah. It's like ringing the alarm, you know? Also having Iggy Pop was big. Black Flag was always a band very enamored with The Stooges. I don't know how much Greg Ginn knows about who's on the record yet, but I can't wait to hear what he thinks of Iggy Pop singing a Greg Ginn song. He's gonna be a pretty happy dude. Iggy whoops ass on that song. Iggy is a huge hero of mine, so having him on board means a lot to me. I'm overjoyed that those guys both came through. Talk about not even in the same genre. They just came out of different elements and hopped on board.

Bedlam: Was it kind of bittersweet to go back to these songs after so long?

Henry: Well, it was weird going back. I haven't played these records in a long time, but it was cool to see how well the songs still worked. The guys in the band all grew up on this music, and in a way I did too. We were all just standing there at the end of the second day of practice and we were looking at each other going "God damn I'm worn out." Songs like this really kick your ass. We became fans all over again in a different way. I've been out of that band for so long, and I didn't write any of that music, so I'm kind of just back to fan status. For me it was like this cool two weeks of karaoke. I marveled at the compact, intense energy that these songs have. They really are efficient. It's like "here is fifty seconds…what can we do in fifty seconds?" Well, Revenge. That's a dense 50 seconds.

Bedlam: You mentioned that Greg had known beforehand about you doing the album…

Henry: Yeah. I don't know how much you know about the more boring parts of the music business, but with music publishing what you usually get on a record is what's called a 12 song publishing cap. It's where we put like 15 songs on the record and you get publishing for 12. We just agree on it. Otherwise you have to keep jacking up the price of the record. To pay publishing on 24 songs, there would be no money for the kids who we're doing the benefit for. We had to call Greg and get his blessing on a 12 song publishing cap. He's the publisher, so it's up to him. If he said no and made us pay on 24 songs, this record would have been a very different situation. It would have barely made a profit, and it would have added $2 to the retail. I wrote him, explained what we were doing and asked for the 12 song cap, please. He said, "you got it". He was so cool about it.

Bedlam: What about the rest of the people who have been in the band? I mean, you got Keith back, you got Kira and Chuck back…how did they feel about the whole thing?

Henry: They were really into it. Keith was the first guy I called. I got a room to practice, a studio to record, and a band to play with. Okay, so now I need singers. I'm in, but who else? Gotta call Keith Morris. Without him, we don't have a record as far as I'm concerned. Keith is a really wonderful guy, and he said yes. I told him "that was a relief", and he said "come on, you knew I'd do it." I told him "no I didn't, but as far as I'm concerned, this record has no integrity if you're not on it." So, he came aboard. Listen to that vocal! I mean, forget it! He fucking kills that thing. He's fucking 50 man! He just walks in and hit this vocal and we're all like "oh my god!"

Bedlam: Was a lot of the stuff one take?

Henry: Yeah. Or two takes. These people came really prepared.

Bedlam: What's to prevent you from taking this thing on the road in some form?

Henry: Well, it's not like I don't want to. I mean, we were having so much fun playing these songs. Before we recorded, we were doing this as a 24 song set in 4 song blocks. Sometimes we were like "let's go find a club tonight and play" because things just feel really good. Yeah, I'd love to do a handful of shows and give the money to the kids. I think people would love it. Basically, the only thing in my way is that I've got a lot of work right now. My boys are busy making their own record, and I've got a bunch of other stuff going on. There's no way I could go out on the road.

Bedlam: You got a few new movies coming out soon don't you?

Henry: Yeah. I've got a lot of film-type stuff coming up. Right now I'm in the middle of Bad Boys 2 with Will Smith and Martin Lawrence. I did another film earlier this year, I have a TV show called Full Metal Challenge on TLC, I just did an episode of the Drew Carey show…I'm doing a lot of that stuff now. Between tours I just kind of freelance. I always have a pile of stuff to do here at the office. I just finished a lyrics book that came out, and we're finishing up an internet CD release for the Rollins Band. I'm also always going out on auditions for voice-overs, movies and TV. Right now I seem to be getting a lot of parts, so until the next tour starts in January, that's what I'll be doing.

Bedlam: Is it a talking tour coming up?

Henry: Yeah. 80 shows. We're going everywhere. North America, Europe, Australia and maybe more.

Bedlam: I don't understand how (during your talking shows) you can talk for three hours and not stop. Not take a drink, not sit down…nothing.

Henry: It's just what I do. I like it up there. I've been in front of people performing for over half my life, and after a while it just becomes you. I don't know what I would do without that. Those tours are hard. I mean, you've seen me before, so multiply that by 50 and get back to me. Some nights you walk out and you don't know if you can do it, but then you go out there and it's the best show of that month.

Bedlam: Is all the danger gone out of touring now?

Henry: It certainly is a smoother, more predictable ride than it used to be. It's no longer a wild journey. It's more like one pro-gig to the next. In the Black Flag days (and early Rollins Band) it was like "we're gonna go on tour I HOPE, and we're gonna pull off these shows I THINK." Now it's just business as usual. That's cool though. I don't want to have to hope for a P.A.

Bedlam: I'm actually a little surprised that you don't like doing interviews. You seem to me like the kind of guy who enjoys talking to people.

Henry: Well, I don't mind them, but I mean…it's Saturday! I've got press until 3:00, and if you saw my week…it's just been relentless. This has been okay because all the journalists really like the record and they all dig the cause. When it's one of my own records it's a trickier deal. They're just like, "justify your existence" basically. "What's the difference between this record and your last record?" Let's see…keyboards, saxophone, backing vocals….you have to kind of defend your product. This is different because there isn't much to say about this record. Why did you do it? Because we wanted to help out. Why Black Flag music? It's the ultimate protest music and it'll definitely make people pause. The record is really good. If you don't like it, it's just because you don't like it. It's not because we didn't play the songs well and it's not that it wasn't produced well. The production is great, the playing is ridiculous and the singers are scorching. If you don't like it, it's just not your trip, but it's not like we put out a cheesy product.

Bedlam: But at the same time, does the press mean anything to you? I mean, I've read letters you've written to magazines responding to articles about you.

Henry: The older I get, the less it does. When you're younger, you're more precious with stuff. Someone doesn't like your record, so you get all hot and bothered. Well, if you really like what you do, do you really care what he thinks? Well, no. If you get bent out of shape about it then you must be insecure about what you did. I'm not insecure about the records I make. I make really good records. I'm not bragging, It's just fact. I don't put 'em out if they're not good.
I know what a music journalist is at this point. It's a guy (with about eight to eleven pounds of body fat that he doesn't need on him) who gets records for free via jiffy-packs in the mail. His breadth and scope of music is nothing compared to mine. He doesn't do what I do, nor could he, so I take him with a grain.

To me, a music critic should be conversant in Mozart, Leadbelly and Jane's Addiction as well as Sum 41. Sometime you read a review that says a certain song is great and you hear it and find out it's an MC5 rip-off note for note…and you didn't catch it! No critic busted Pearl Jam on "even flow". It's Voodoo Child! They're not bad people, they just like Jimi Hendrix. It's Voodoo Child with a different vocal melody. Next time you hear the song, check it out. They did that and no one called them on it. It's because music critics these days don't have the back-knowledge. I meet music journalists whose first record purchase was Metallica's black album. That's cool, but did you go back and check out Fats Waller, Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Cab Calloway and Janis Joplin? No? Then what the fuck are you doing at your job? In fact…I should have your job. "I listen to everything." Oh, you do? What's your favorite Pigmy music? Me…Imbuti. It's more melodic than Aka and Baka Pigmy music. I have all these records. I do the research and I buy the bootlegs. I am a fan. What I find most of the time are music journalists who are just doing it before fall term starts. Record reviews are more about the reviewer.
We just put out a live album (The Only Way To Know For Sure). I wrote the press release for it, and it said "dear music critic, here is the sum of two nights in Chicago. It's a band playing, it's mixed very well and there are mistakes but they're left in. If you don't like it, it says something about you…not us. Write what you want and show me what you're made of." It's thoroughly confrontational. The reason it's called "The Only Way To Know For Sure" is that I don't give a fuck what your studio record sounds like. I know how they're making them now. I wanna see what you can do live. That's when it's real sex. I mean, Macy Gray had two 24-track machines; do you think they could get one good album out of that chick? She can't even make her way through a song.

Bedlam: I've always thought that a truly great band can get up on stage and do a great show in just jeans and t-shirts. If it doesn't work without a gimmick…you aren't a good band.

Henry: Yeah, exactly.